A former Coalition minister has told the Robodebt royal commission he does not know when the need for policy and law changes for the scheme “fell off the radar”.
Key Points:
- Marise Payne was the Minister of Human Services from 2013 to September 2015
- He told the inquiry that he had not seen all the new policy proposals
- He said the plan’s priority was to get the “right people” supported
Marise Payne has given evidence to public hearings in Brisbane, which are examining the illegal scheme.
She was Minister of Human Services from 2013, when she took over the old government, until September 2015.
The commission has previously heard how the idea originated at the Department of Human Services (DHS) and was developed between it and the Department of Social Services (DSS).
Evidence has also previously been heard that a February 2015 executive minute to Scott Morrison, then social services minister, said “policy and legislative change” would be needed, but the DSS budget submission did not contain that phrase .
“How did the identification of the problem miss the radar before the last executive minute when the proposal was apparently considered by the (expenditure) Review Committee?” Senior Assisting Counsel Justin Greggery asked.
“Mr. Greggery, I don’t know the answer to that question and I say that in all transparency,” Ms. Payne replied.
“However, there is an expectation that when agencies advise you in writing that they are working together to address these issues … that officials will do that,” he said.
Earlier, Commissioner Catherine Holmes asked if it would be extraordinary if Ms Payne did not review a new official policy proposal, which would be implemented by her department, before it went to the Cabinet Expenditure Review Committee.
“I would say, Commissioner, given the volume of material that was involved in the budget process, there would be a number of items that I wouldn’t necessarily see as a junior minister,” she said.
“I have tried to help the commission, I cannot find a record of a specific review of the NPP.
“My memory now, from 2022, of what I did in 2015 doesn’t let me tell you the answer to that question, sorry.”
Ms Payne told the commission that in 2015 there were more than 30 new policy proposals under the name of senior minister Scott Morrison and not everyone would have found his desk.
As a junior minister, she only attended cabinet and ERC meetings when invited.
Greggery also asked Senator Payne about the estimate that the measure would save the budget more than a billion dollars.
“Can you say now that as a major savings measure it had some degree of appeal to a government working with a vision of a balanced budget?”
“I can’t say that,” replied Mrs. Payne.
“The approach that I understood to be a priority was to make sure that we paid the right people the right amounts of support … to avoid paying the wrong people, to prevent fraud and to make sure that when payments were made in the wrong context or where fraud occurred we could recover those savings.”
Ms Payne has denied that a major cross-bencher was delaying the coalition government by including proposals in the 2015-16 budget that would require legislation.
Payne asked about media releases about Robodebt
The royal commission was shown two ministerial press releases mentioning the new compliance measures: one discussed three separate cases of fraud, including thefts of $50,000 and $95,000, and the second highlighted a case where someone had defrauded $200,000.
Commissioner Holmes asked Ms Payne why the releases did not distinguish between criminal activity and the people who would be targeted by the Robodebt scheme.
She replied that press releases allow for a short, crisp message and that reporters can ask for more information if they want.
Speaking about the specific case of the $200,000 fraud, Ms Payne said: “It’s not the case, Commissioner, that this is isolated unfortunately.”
“No, but it’s not much like the sort of person on youth benefit, who hadn’t worked for a whole year, but found the average of their earnings… and was told they had a debt, which was the subject of this. budget measure and it’s really talked about in the same context,” Commissioner Holmes said.
“I’m not suggesting at all that they’re in the same category,” Ms Payne replied.
“One view of this kind of media use is that it was really designed to give the impression that the people subject to the budget measure didn’t deserve any sympathy because they were actually criminals,” Commissioner Holmes said.
“Commissioner, that was not my intention, not my thinking, not my approach,” Senator Payne said.
“But in relation to fraud, and I think these are three strong examples, I would be very clear that the government cannot tolerate it.”